Greg Laurie Interview Chuck Swindoll (#2 of 3)

Greg Laurie: The hardest thing we've gone through is when our son died in an automobile accident. I would say that was the moment that God was with me.
Announcer: Coming up today on A New Beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie has a candid conversation with Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Good counsel is just ahead.
Chuck Swindoll: When you have been hurt deeply, you become more thoughtful, more compassionate, more caring. That is the making of a good shepherd.
Theme Song: This is the day when the lost are found. This is the day for a new beginning. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound. How can you hear all the angels are singing? This is the day, the day when life begins.
Announcer: When you get a couple of pastors together, what do they talk about? Church attendance? Favorite Bible translation? Where do you buy your pulpit? Well, today on A New Beginning, we'll see it goes much deeper. It's about honoring God, the responsibility of teaching God's people, and being a faithful servant over the long haul. Today, during Legends Week, Pastor Greg Laurie has the honor of speaking with Pastor Chuck Swindoll, his longtime friend and respected elder statesman.
Greg Laurie: Now, you've lived over these years, and you've watched changes take place. How have things changed in the realm of evangelism? Is your approach pretty much the same, or have you altered it to fit this particular era in which we live? And how is that different from the way it once was when you first got underway?
Chuck Swindoll: Very good question. I think that the essentials don't change. I once asked Billy Graham, "Billy, if an older Billy could speak to a younger Billy, what advice would you give yourself?" And he said, "I would tell myself to preach more on the blood and the cross, because that's where the power is." So I think you always need to remember that as Spurgeon would say, as an evangelist, you make a beeline to the cross. The power is in the cross, in His death, His resurrection, the need for the person to repent of their sin, put their faith in Christ. But everything has changed so dramatically. I've been preaching for over 50 years now, and it's changed a lot over the years, but I would say even in the last 10 years, it's changed dramatically. When I started doing evangelistic crusades, the internet was just coming into play. There were no cell phones yet. But today, with the cell phone and with the young generation and the impact it's had on them, it's a very different time. Their attention span is very limited. I find that they are almost completely biblically illiterate. There was a time when you could say "Noah's Ark" or "Adam and Eve in the garden," references from scripture. This young generation doesn't even know what you're talking about. So I find I have to define everything as I go. I don't assume if I say, "You need to accept Jesus Christ into your life," I don't assume they even know what that means. I find that I have to break that down and explain what I mean by each of those terms, even "accept Christ into your life." So I find it's like Paul at Mars Hill. He took time to assess the culture. He took time to study the philosophies that were popular, and then he used the story of the unknown God they erected for the one God they may have missed among the thousands that they worshiped. He said, "Today I want to talk to you about the unknown God." He built a bridge to his audience, but then he brought them the message of the gospel. So I find that I'm constantly adapting and I use cultural references to start, but it always comes down to the power of the scripture.
Greg Laurie: When were you led to move it into a true crusade, where it became Harvest Crusade, which is known all over the country now?
Chuck Swindoll: Well, I always gave invitations for people to come to Christ like you do, Chuck, in your messages. And we would do little outreach events here and there. But Pastor Chuck Smith, around 1989, asked me to come down and speak at his church and do sort of an outreach Bible study for youth, which we did on Monday nights. It began to grow. It got really large. We were overflowing. And it was Chuck's idea to go to a larger venue. He said, "Let's go to a bigger venue and do a crusade like a Billy Graham Crusade." I said, "Okay, well, that'd be great, Chuck. I could speak and some of the other guys could speak." He said, "No, I think you should just speak." And then I said, "Well, where do you want to go?" And he said, "The Pacific Amphitheatre," which seated around 18,000 people. I said, "Well, that's a pretty big place, Chuck." And he said, "Well, we serve a pretty big God." And so we took a step of faith and went there. We broke their attendance records in the first week, and then the next year we went to Angel Stadium, and we've been there ever since.
Greg Laurie: Yeah, that's where I've known it, in Angel Stadium. What a great crowd you have, what interest there is.
Chuck Swindoll: Well, you were with us when we did it here in Texas, AT&T Stadium, and that was our largest crusade we've done with over 100,000 people in attendance.
Greg Laurie: It was a wonderful experience.
Chuck Swindoll: It was great. So yeah, that was his idea. And you've heard the expression, "If you see a turtle on a fence post, you know he didn't get there by himself." So I think I look at my life and I see these things that God has done, and I just realize I could have never done these things, but I know that the Lord has opened the doors, not unlike you. Because I've heard you say you never planned on having a radio ministry, you never planned on becoming a writing ministry.
Greg Laurie: Never, never.
Chuck Swindoll: Or the chancellor of DTS.
Greg Laurie: Right.
Chuck Swindoll: Or starting a new church later in life. That was a very bold move.
Greg Laurie: Right. I was 59 when I went to Dallas Seminary, and then I started the church here. I was getting up in years by then, and they wanted me to come as president. I couldn't say no fast enough. And Cynthia said to me, "Why'd you say no?" I said, "Because I'm not presidential. I'm not one of those wonderful, beautiful minds that walk around a seminary." She said, "They know who you are. They know what they're asking." And I said, "It's just not me." Well, they came again, and I said no. And they came the third time, and long story short, I finally came to realize that God wants me to say yes. And He wanted me to go as a shepherd. I could do that. And I shepherded the students, I even shepherded the faculty. Some of those men said to me they never had heard a grown man say to them, "I love you," in their lifetime. And I regularly told them that. You don't have to be brilliant to do that, but you do have to be vulnerable, and you have to be willing to say that to another man. Greg, I've had men just weep when they hear that. When I got ready to leave the seminary, several came into my office at different times and they just cried, because they said, "We've never had someone who really loved us like this." Which tells you that's what really cuts through. That's what really reaches the heart.
Announcer: More of this moving discussion between Greg Laurie and Chuck Swindoll in just a moment. We love to hear stories of how lives have been impacted through the teaching of God's Word, like this one.
Guest (Female): Thank you, Pastor Greg, for teaching the Bible so clearly and breaking the Bible down for me to understand it better. I also like the humor you add to your sermons. I find that I receive your daily devotionals, and they're so encouraging to me. I've also shared them with a close family member who gets very anxious about life. Your studies have helped us both. Thank you again.
Announcer: When we hear from you, it's not only a blessing, it also confirms that the program is making an impact. If you have a story to share, would you email Pastor Greg? Send your email to [email protected]. That's [email protected]. You've joined us for a special program today. It's Legends Week on A New Beginning, and today Pastor Greg is speaking with Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Some of their most personal comments are just ahead.
Greg Laurie: You're rolling along teaching the Bible and the group is growing and Chuck has got ideas for you. Where does Kathy fit into all of this?
Chuck Swindoll: Well, I was doing this little Bible study and there were these three girls that showed up. It was Kathy and her two sisters. And she caught my eye, Kathy. And it was almost like a light was shining down on her. It was actually her sister holding a flashlight over her head. Not really.
Greg Laurie: You are a preacher, but you're also a red-blooded American boy.
Chuck Swindoll: Yeah, and I don't want people to think I'm just checking out girls while I'm preaching, but I did notice Kathy. And afterwards I said to her, "Hey, would you like to go out and get some dessert after church?" And she said yes. And so the four of us went out, three sisters and me. Then the next time I spoke, I said the same thing, "Want to go out and get some dessert?" And she got her sisters and we went out. Then the third time I said, "Well, let's go get some dessert after church," and she said, "I'll get my sisters." And I said, "I don't want your sisters. I just want to go with you." And so we fell in love pretty quickly. But there could not be two more opposite people than Greg and Kathy.
Greg Laurie: Really?
Chuck Swindoll: Oh, we're just the exact opposite. I'm messy, she's very neat. I'm usually very close to being on time, she's sometimes late. She's cute, I'm fat. What can I say? We're different. But we had three big breakups like, "I don't want to see you ever again," and we'd break up, then we would get back together and then we'd break up again. So we got it all out of our system.
Greg Laurie: Got all the breakups out of the way.
Chuck Swindoll: And then we got married and we've celebrated 52 years of marriage together. And so I couldn't have done what I do without her. She's my number one counselor, and she'll always tell me the truth.
Greg Laurie: Good. We need wives for that reason.
Chuck Swindoll: Sometimes a little too much.
Greg Laurie: Oh, I know, but you've got to have it.
Chuck Swindoll: Yeah. And so she's been with me through all of it. The hardest thing we've gone through is when our son died in an automobile accident.
Greg Laurie: 2008?
Chuck Swindoll: Yes, it was.
Greg Laurie: I couldn't believe it when I heard it. Everything in my life at that moment stopped. I'm serious. We prayed for you as a family and Cynthia and I as a couple, because we identified. We have two boys and we have two girls. And so I couldn't imagine losing one of them, just like you couldn't. If you don't mind, walk through that with us.
Chuck Swindoll: Well, we have two sons, Christopher and Jonathan. And Christopher was a little bit of a wild boy. He was always a good boy, but he had a wild side. He went for a time where he was a prodigal walking away from the Lord, although always was respectful and loving and a good son, but he was away from the Lord. He made a recommitment to Christ and was walking with the Lord and had got married and had a baby, our first granddaughter, Stella. He became a very talented designer and he was the lead designer at our church in Riverside. He was on his way to church early in the morning about 9:01, and he collided with a Caltrans vehicle. My wife was having a Bible study with his wife, Brittany, and some other ladies. Brittany was texting Christopher like, "What are you doing?" or something. He wasn't answering. And I texted him and no answer. Then I was calling the church, I couldn't get an answer. I knew something was terribly wrong, but I didn't know what it was. And then people started showing up at my house and then finally some of our pastors told me that Christopher went to be with the Lord. And it was like, I don't know how to describe it, it's like all the air left the room. It's like time stopped. I collapsed. And I just thought my world just ended. Like how do you survive this? I felt if words could kill you, I could have died from hearing those words. And Kathy saw me and actually took my face in her hands and she said, "It's going to be okay." And there's only one person who could have said that to me, and it was her. And okay meaning not that this is good, but we will survive this. We'll make it. Because I just like, how do you survive this? And even though as a pastor I'd presided over many services, sadly many for children who died, I thought, well, I know a little bit about this.
Greg Laurie: It's quite different when it's your own.
Chuck Swindoll: It's completely different. But you know, here's the interesting thing. I just fell on the floor and I prayed a Job-like prayer. And I said, "Lord, You gave him to us and I give him back to You." And people have asked me, "When have you felt the presence of God more than any other time in your life?" And I would say that was the moment that God was with me. You know, His strength is made perfect in weakness. And I was listening, interestingly, Chuck, you kind of play a role in this and your teaching from a distance. I was listening to your teaching on the radio and you talked, and I don't remember the exact quote, it might be a Tozer quote, but it's something before God can use a man, He has to hurt him. Does this ring a bell?
Greg Laurie: Yeah. Tozer. "It is doubtful God can use anyone greatly until He has hurt him deeply." That's a hard one.
Chuck Swindoll: That's a tough one.
Greg Laurie: I've had some people say, "I don't believe that. That makes God cruel." On the contrary, when you have been hurt deeply, you change, Greg. You deepen. You deepen. You get quiet. You become more thoughtful, more compassionate, more caring, more understanding. That is the making of a good shepherd. There's a Scottish saying, "Some things are better felt than tell't." People can tell when you have a heart. You don't get a heart by taking a course on how to get a heart. You don't read a book on "Here's how to develop a heart." You go through the heartbreaks of life and out of that emerges an incredible world that never had been developed before. So that you have a capacity now that few have, because you have lost someone so close to your own heart that you'll never forget it. That prepares you to touch the lives of those who come with that empty, dreadful expression, "I feel lost. I feel like I can't go on. I feel like I've reached the end." And you can say, "You're going to make it. And let me tell you how I know." And you can tell them your story. I love another Tozer quote, and you'll love this. "May not the inadequacy of much of our spiritual experience be traced back to our habit of skipping through the corridor of the kingdom like children in the marketplace, always chattering about everything but pausing to learn the true value of nothing." I love that quote. You've learned the true value of life and the true meaning of death and grief and sorrow and bone-deep pain. There aren't words you can use to describe what you and Kathy endured. You may try, but only those who have lost one of their own will say, "That's exactly the way it was with me." Gives you a capacity, a depth. And that may explain, Greg, why even though you may not have had all the academic training you may have wished you would have had, or you may not have had all the breaks that you would have loved to have had or those first 17, 18, 20 years of your life at the knee of some godly individual. Wait, wait, wait. You've had the Lord Jesus Christ right there in the depth of your life at moments that defied explanation as He reached in and quietly developed you in ways you would not have been developed. Job writes, Job 23:10-12, get this. "But He knows the way that I take. When He has tried me, I will come forth as gold. My foot has held his steps. His way have I kept and not declined. Neither have I turned back from the command of His lips. I have esteemed, prized, valued the words of His mouth more than my necessary food." That's why in deep grief, you lose your appetite. You're feeding on divine manna that comes to minister to you from the heavenlies, provided for you by the Lord your God. I so respect you for going through it and being able to talk about it and letting it change you. I love Corrie ten Boom's statement, "Give the gospel regularly and, when necessary, use words." You're giving the gospel right now, even though you're not saying a word. You're modeling it. When you get alongside people and you put your arm around them and you tell them you understand, you're helping them see a side of Christ they have not seen before. And you're not saying much at all.
Chuck Swindoll: Well, thank you for all that you said. That was just so powerful and I know that's going to be a blessing to so many people.